In late summer of 1975, Salt Lake area police decided they needed to look into Ted Bundy’s associates: his neighbors, friends, girlfriends, and employers. This is what they had to say.
Interview of Dr. R. N. Hirst by Detective Jerry Thompson
Sept. 10, 1975
On 9-9-75 this detective, along with Lt. Ron Ballantine from the Bountiful Police Department, made contact with a DR. R.N. HIRST. Contact was made in his office at approximately 10:30 a.m. on this date. The doctor was asked if he was familiar with a THEODORE BUNDY. He stated that he was familiar with him quite a bit, that Bundy was going with his daughter, who is ELIZABETH KLOEPFER, who resides in Seattle. She is the manager of the nursing outfit at the University of Washington. The doctor states that his daughter has been going with this individual for approximately the past four, maybe five years on and off. They were going to get married in 1974 and something happened that stopped that. They were again going to get married in December of 1975, and his daughter states they are not going to get married.
He states he doesn’t know too much about the individual, other than what he has heard from his daughter; he has seen him on several occasions; he has gone fishing with him; he has gone hunting with him; he knows that he goes to the University of Utah in Law School, he came down to Utah in 1974; Bundy told him that he had a (he didn’t know whether it was Masters or B.S.) degree in Psychology from UW. He states the only background he knows about him is that his father and family are in Tacoma; that his father is affiliated with the Army in the line of taking care of meals, he doesn’t know just exactly if he contracts them out or what the story is; he believes him to have three brothers and one sister.
He states the individual has always been very pleasant, very nice to talk to, and he has had no problems with him. He stated that if he was going to give an opinion of the individual, he stated the individual was definitely a schizophrenic. When asked to elaborate on that, he stated that at one time he is very nice, very pleasant, very helpful; then he becomes extremely moody, does not talk, gives you the opinion that he is really thinking or contemplating something. He states he has never known the individual to be violent. He doesn’t believe that he came from a family of much money; he doesn’t believe that he has much money. He states that the individual was involved in the Republican Party in the re-election of Governor Evans in Washington.
He states to his knowledge the only vehicles he has known him to drive are: an older type truck (he states he does not know what it is, he is not even sure of the color); and also a Volkswagen. He states that it is an older Volkswagen, he is not sure of the color- maybe it’s light blue, he just doesn’t know for sure.
After finally breaking the ice with the doctor, he was asked if he knew the subject had ever been talked to by the Sheriff’s Office in Salt Lake or if he had been arrested. He stated he did not. He was informed that he had been arrested here. He asked what for, and he was told by this officer. He was also shown a picture of the items he had in his possession – the handcuffs, ropes, etc. He stated that that brought a point to mind; he stated that his daughter, a year or so ago, called him (she was very upset), and told him that their marriage was off; that Bundy had some very weird hang-ups; and that she was very concerned about him; and that she was going to the Seattle Police Department about him; that she had feelings or thoughts that he may be involved in some of the killings or missings of the girls in the Seattle area. He stated that she confronted him that the Seattle Police Department did not seem impressed, did not seem interested, and that she was wasting their time. She then asked him if he would contact the Sheriff’s Office in Salt Lake about it; that something had to be done. He stated he did not contact anyone. He did not know who to contact. He didn’t know what the Salt Lake Police could do to help out a problem in Seattle. He wasn’t too sure he wanted to get mixed up in it.
He was asked what the weird hang-ups were, what she had to say. He stated that she did not elaborate much on that; she just stated that he had a pair of crutches or some items in her apartment that he had no need, and it was just something that he says, ‘I don’t really know, you would have to talk to her.’ He was asked if he thought that she would talk to us, and he said he was sure she definitely would, she wanted to at one time, but Seattle didn’t appear to be interested in her opinion.
He was asked if he had gone deer hunting with this subject last year, and he stated that he went deer hunting with him on October 20, 1974, which was a Sunday. It was a Sunday morning that he picked him up. They went hunting for the day up in the Blacksmith Fork area above Logan, and came back that evening. He stated that the subject did not have a gun, that he had his and he just went along with him. He stated that he has taken the subject numerous times up to Flaming Gorge, where he has a trailer.
The subject likes to be out in the outdoors. He goes fishing, etc. He claims that his daughter was down here in August of this year and was with the subject at that time, from the 3rd to the 10th of August, he believes.
He believes that his daughter and him (Bundy) had been up in Park City skiing, last year, he is not sure. He was asked if he had ever observed the subject wearing a beard or a mustache. He stated, ‘Yes, I believe he definitely had one, but it’s been some time ago and I really can’t tell you.’
He was asked if his daughter had mentioned any kind of sexual hang-ups or anything else about the subject. He stated no, not to him.
He appeared to this officer to not really want to get involved too much, but did seem concerned and thought that maybe his daughter could help us out a lot better. He was asked what her relationship was with him now. He stated that the marriage was definitely off, that his daughter said he had too many hang-ups. He also stated that his daughter had never told him that he had been arrested in Salt Lake and he did not know this. The doctor was informed that we would be back in contact with him, and my business card was left with him if he had any further questions.
Interview of Mary Lynn Chino by Detective Beal
Sept. 19, 1975
This is an interview of Mary Lynn Chino, Seattle, Washington. Mary was asked how long she had known Ted and she stated she had known him for approximately six years, that she was with Elizabeth Kloepfer when they met Ted at a bar approximately six years ago.
Mary was then asked how well she knew Ted. She stated she knew more about Ted from her conversations with Liz, however, she has from time to time had several in depth conversations with Ted. She did not elaborate as to what they were about.
Mary was then asked how old she would guess Ted was. She stated she did not know his exact age, however, she would guess he was approximately 25 years of age. She then stated she has noticed how he has aged considerably in the last year but, previous to that he looked much younger.
Mary stated that she had never started thinking about Ted in relation to possibly being the one involved in the disappearance of the girls in the Seattle area until Liz approached her. She stated this was in July of 1974. She stated at that time Liz came to her apartment with the composite stating that someone at work had stated, ‘ha, is this your boyfriend?’ She stated at that time they started trying to link things together. At that time the girl who disappeared on July 14th of 1974 had just disappeared from the Lake State Park and the description fit Ted exactly, especially the clothes he was wearing as Ted dressed exactly that way.
Mary stated then in October she came to Utah to visit her parents in Ogden. At that time discovered the disappearance of the girl in Salt Lake, this being Melissa Smith, and upon her return to Seattle she contacted Liz and told her about the girl missing in Salt Lake being very similar to the ones that had turned up missing in the Seattle area. Mary then left and went to Europe and did not return to Seattle until December.
Mary was then asked if she had observed any unusual things or any unusual actions in Ted’s actions. She stated one night she was out late, coming home approximately 2:00 AM and as she entered her house she observed Ted out walking in the yards behind her house. This is in the University District near the area where Ted was living. She stated this occurred in 1972 and she feels he was stealing at this time. Mary was then asked if she recalled a ripped seat in Ted’s car and she stated she did not remember it.
Mary was then asked if Ted had ever made any comments to her regarding missing girls in the Seattle area and she stated he had not.
Mary was asked if Ted had ever made any advances toward her sexually and she stated he had not.
Mary then was asked if she knew when Liz talked with the Police. She stated she did and Liz had talked with her just prior to going to the police and in fact she had kind of encouraged Liz to go.
Mary was then asked if she had any ideas as to what type of hair-dos Ted liked or any particular style or type girl that he liked. She stated he loved long hair and liked to play with Liz’s hair all the time, always running his fingers and hands through it.
Mary was then asked if she knew of any of Ted’s friends. She stated Ted did not have very many friends in Seattle. The people she knew that had met Ted saw through him as a phony.
Mary was then asked if it would be hard for Ted to start a conversation with a stranger such as picking up a girl. She stated it would be very easy for him to do this as he dressed very well, was a good conversationalist and was very good looking and it would be very easy to strike up a conversation with a strange girl and possibly talk her into going with him.
Mary was then asked if Ted had ever said anything to her or around her in regards to evidence or laws of evidence regarding his work or schooling as an attorney. She stated he had not.
Mary then stated Ted calls all the time from Salt Lake and whenever she is at Liz’s apartment and he calls and Liz is not at home he gets quite upset. She also stated that if Ted calls and no one is home at Liz’s apartment he will immediately call her apartment and be very upset because Liz is not at home. She stated he is very jealous of Liz.
Mary was then asked if she knew how Ted was getting his money for his schooling. She stated Ted did not come from a rich family, he did not have very much money. She stated she is sure he steals things to get money, that he lies. She stated she knows he has lied to her and he has also lied to Liz.
Mary then went on to state that one time when they were taking a river trip that he likes to get down the river into the rapids area and go further than he should deliberately to try and scare the girls that are with him as he just loves to see girls scared.
Mary was then asked if she knew if Ted owned a gun. She stated she did not know. Mary also stated that Ted likes the nicer things in life and she feels that this is one reason he hangs around Liz all the time is that she has the nicer things in life that Ted desires.
This completes the interview with Mary Chino.
Interview of Charles and Rose Marie Shearer by Detective Beal
Monday, Sept. 29, 1975
Reporting officer, Lt. Ballantyne and Deputy Jerry Thompson of Salt Lake County Sheriff’s Office went to [address redacted] where contact was made with Rose Marie Shearer. After Mrs. Shearer agreed to speak with these officers she was asked how long she had lived there and she advised approximately 3 months. She was then asked if she knew Mr. Bundy. She stated “who?”
It was then asked if she knew Ted Bundy and she stated she knew Ted as he acted as manager of the apartments and he was the one who had showed them their apartment.
She was then asked if she knew if he had moved. She stated he had moved approximately one week ago. She was asked if she observed him moving and she stated no.
It was then inquired if she knew Ted had sold his car and she stated she did not, however, she stated he might have as she has not seen it for awhile.
It was then asked if she was very good friends with Ted. She stated they had talked with him a little bit but did not really associate too much with him.
It was inquired if Rose Marie lived there alone and she stated no she was married and lived with her husband.
This concluded the interview with Mrs. Rose Marie Shearer.
As reporting officer, Lt. Ballantyne, Detective Thompson were leaving the Shearer apartment Mr. Charles Shearer suddenly came out stating that he did not want these officers bothering his wife or his family and as to what Mr. Bundy’s problems were he did not wish to become involved. Mr. Shearer was asked if he would be willing to talk with these officers and he stated he would. Mr. Shearer then indicated that Mr. Bundy had informed him and one of the other neighbors that they were not to drink beer out on the front porch or in any way antagonize or give the police a reason to come to the residence as they had been following him around and was constantly roaming around the apartment.
Mr. Shearer stated that he had been aware that there had been what appeared to be some plain clothes officers sitting out front and also around the apartment building. Mr. Shearer stated that he then went to Mr. Bundy’s apartment and inquired as to why the police were watching him as to whether or not he had done anything or if it might be someone else they might be watching. He stated the Feds were after him due to a tear in the back seat of his car and the tools that the police had found in his car which they claimed were burglar tools and that they were trying to pin some killings of some girls on him due to these things.
Mr. Shearer then stated that he had sold his car approximately two weeks ago for approximately $700 to $750 to a young lady who has a small child, however, he did not know her name. It was inquired as to whether Mr. Shearer was good friends of Ted. He stated he had talked with him several times. He stated in his opinion Ted was two different people. When asked what he meant by this he stated he just acts queer sometimes.
One night he left approximately 1:00 AM and when he returned at approximately 4:00 AM he just burst right in his apartment even though his wife was in bed. When asked why he done this he stated he thought they might be up.
He also stated that Ted would sit and drink beer when them and then suddenly he would for no reason at all would state that he was indulging too much and would have to quit that kind of stuff. He just seemed to have two personalities.
Mr. Shearer also stated that Ted had from time to time indicated that he enjoyed going to one of the local bars called The Sun Bar which is supposed to be known as one of the local queer joints. He stated he would not even go there if he knew there were straight people there. This is all the information that Mr. Shearer could give.
Excerpt from Report by Detective Jerry Thompson
Sept. 30, 1975
This detective, along with the Assistant County Attorney Jerry Kinghorn, went to the University of Utah Law School and made contact with the Assistant Dean, Bruce Zimmer, and several law professors in regards to subject Theodore Bundy. The only pertinant information that came from all of them (these were professors who had the subject in their classes during 1974), was that during the fall of 1974 the individual was not in class very much at all; that he missed several final examinations and had made special appointments and special consideration to take them at a later date after the first of the year. Other than the fact that this was very unusual for an individual to be his first time in law school to be absent and not attend his first quarter, they could not see anything unusual and did not know the individual that well.
We had also received information while at the law school that four students- Bart Farnsworth, Gloria Ann Howard, Janet Benson, and Allen Mathies- were very close to this individual and that some of them had made the statement at one time or another during the fall of 1974 that Mr. Bundy had come into school with scratches on his face and they had made the comment and were teasing him about his love life, if that’s what had happened. We were also informed that they were fairly close friends of Mr. Bundy and that they were all four law students.
Interview of Wendy Bonner by Detective Jerry Thompson
Oct. 10, 1975
Contact was made with WENDY BONNER on this date, 10-7-75, by Detective Couch and myself in downtown Salt Lake. Wendy states that she knew Mr. Bundy to the point that three or four weeks ago she answered an ad in the paper where he was selling a Volkswagen and she was looking for one.
She states she went over to his place with her small five-year-old daughter and confronted him about the Volkswagen. She stated that she had gone into his apartment and used the telephone; in fact she had gone back there two or three times later because she really wanted the car, but she was trying to get money from the bank.
She stated she has even gone with him in his car, where he had taken her to the bank where she tried to get money, but her five-year-old daughter has always been with her.
She stated the only thing she thought was unusual about him was that he was extremely quiet. He never said anything. In fact, she thought it was kind of unusual because most guys will say things like, “What are you doing tonight?” or “How about a date.”
She said there were no advances or comments, or anything made towards her in this line. She did think he was unusual, she can’t describe how or what it was about him, but she tried to start a conversation with him. She stated that he said very, very little.
She stated that he did make the comment that if she needed any work on this car and she did buy it, he had a little German guy that worked on it and that he does real good work. She stated ‘I cannot remember his name. I will try. If I do, I’ll get back to you.’
She stated that she took the Volkswagen down to Jerry’s Volkswagen Shop and had him look at the Volkswagen to see if it was a good Volkswagen, and that maybe this individual could help us about anything Ted said, because Ted was there talking to him also.
She stated that she heard a DAVE ECKERSLEY went to Washington with Ted last spring. Other than that, she states, she doesn’t know anything about it. “I do know Dave, and when I was talking about buying a car, I told Dave I was trying to buy it from this Bundy, and he says ‘well that’s funny, I knew him, I went up to Washington with him.'”
Interview of Janette Benson by Detective Beal
Oct. 10, 1975 at 930 hours
Janette was asked when she first met Ted Bundy. She stated it was in January at the beginning of the second semester. She was asked if she had known or seen him during the first semester. She stated he may have dropped into class a couple of times but she did not actually meet him to where she knew who he was until the second semester.
Reporting officer asked her if she recalled seeing any scratches on Ted’s face and she stated she could not recall seeing any scratches at all. Reporting officer asked if she had done any work projects related to school with Ted and she stated she had been scheduled to do one, however, this did not materialize and therefore she did not do any.
She stated that her association with Ted was strictly social contacts being at various social gatherings which he also attended.
Janette was asked whether or not she felt Ted mingled well with crowds. She stated he mingled very well and was always associating with the people at the gatherings.
Reporting officer asked Janette if she had observed anything unusual about Ted’s actions. She stated she had not. She stated the Ted she knew was a very well mannered, polite fun person to be around. Janette stated there was nothing further she could offer.
This terminated the interview.
Interview of Carol Booth by Detective Jerry Thompson
Oct. 30, 1975
Carol Booth contacted this detective by telephone, stating that she wanted to talk about Mr. Bundy, that she lived across the hall from him when he was living on First Avenue. Contact was made with her at her home on 10-30-75, at which time Carol stated that from April 24, 1975, she lived in the apartment directly across the hall from Mr. Bundy, and that she had a little bit of dealings with him, as the owner told her Mr. Bundy was the manager. She said she got to know him rather well.
She saw nothing unusual about him, he seemed like a very nice and very intelligent individual. She noticed one thing, that he had a phobia for cleanliness, she’s never observed an individual that was as clean as he was with his apartment, etc. She stated that some time while they were over there, a sewing machine that she had (she cannot prove it), but she believes she either loaned it to Mr. Bundy or he came over and got it and she hasn’t been able to find it since. She asked him about it, and he stated ‘I don’t know what you’re talking about.’ She confronted all the other members in the apartment building and none of them claimed to have it. She believes that he did have it and she wondered if we had found it in his apartment when we went through it. She states that it is described as a portable sewing machine with kind of a pink leather case. However, she states that she does not want me to ask him about it, as she is fearful.
She states that on the night of this barbeque and party at her home [where she introduced Leslie Knudson to Ted], Paul Van Dam and his wife, Lynn, were at this party, as she is a very close friend of Paul’s wife. She states that she still talks to Paul Van Dam’s wife continually, as they are very close friends, and she keeps her abreast of what’s going on with Mr. Bundy. I asked her what she meant by that, and she stated “Oh, she just tells me that you keep getting more evidence all the time.”
She stated that she had also called Mr. John O’Connell, Ted’s attorney, because he was a close friend of hers, and asked if there was anything she could do. He informed her no there wasn’t, if there was he would let her know.
She stated one other thing he mentioned about his home life was that he had a sister who had two kids from a black individual and that they never got married, and he was real upset over this. Other than that, she said she could not help me any more.
Interview of James Schuster by Detective Jerry Thompson
November 10, 1975
An interview was conducted on 10-28-75 with Jim Schuster at Bailiff Hall at the University of Utah. Jim is the supervisor or head resident at this hall. Jim states that he employed subject Ted Bundy at Bailiff Hall. He started work on 4-16-75 and as near as he can recall, he worked til 6-1-75. He states the individual worked Friday and Saturday nights only and that his shift work was from midnight til 2:30 in the morning. He stated that he paid him $2.10 an hour and that when Bundy applied for the job he commented to him, ‘What is a nice young eligible bachelor like you going to law school working a schedule like this? I am sure that it puts quite a crimp in your love life.’ He stated that Ted told him, ‘There’s no problem with that, I still want the job.’ He stated the basic job was to run movies, etc., keep the hall open for the students late at night, and just to keep an eye on things.
He states that it was on his own request that Mr. Bundy turn in his resignation or he would fire him. He states that several times he came to work very drunk, that he was late several times, and that one particular weekend he never showed up and he didn’t call and let anyone know this. He stated he did not have any complaints about him as to his work.
He stated that in his opinion, the individual was a very odd person, that he was an individual that thought out every word before he said it to make sure that he was perfect in trying to put over a point. He stated that the individual reminded him of someone that did an awful lot of talking about wanting to change and having different ideas, but in fact he didn’t believe in what he was trying to tell you, but he’d do it to try to convince someone something about himself.
Interview of Charles Shearer by Detective Jerry Thompson
Nov. 26, 1975
On 11-26-75 a Chuck Shearer called County Attorney Dave Yocom and informed him that he had lived across the hall from Mr. Bundy for a few months, then he left town and since has come back and learned that Mr. Bundy has been arrested and that he may have some information about him. It should be noted that an interview was made with both of these individuals some time ago; before Mr. Bundy was ever arrested at the apartment building at 565 First Avenue. Since that time and since Mr. Bundy’s arrest, it appears that Mr. Shearer has decided to come forth with a little bit more information than he originally did before.
Contact was made with Shearer and his wife, Rosemary, at his apartment on 11-26-75. A brief summary is that Mr. Bundy was drinking one night and was fairly well plastered (drunk) with Charles Shearer, and Mr. Bundy made the comment to Mr. Shearer that the police were looking for him (Mr. Bundy) in regards to his car, that it was used in the kidnapping of three girls in the Utah area. In fact, Chuck states that Ted told him that he had abducted the three girls, as near as he can recall. When Chuck asked him, “What did you say?”, he stated that Mr. Bundy did not comment any further and got off the subject and would not answer him. His wife Rosemary also stated that as near as she could tell, that’s exactly what he said.
One other item they particularly mentioned was that he commented that he liked to be around homosexuals; that he went around the Sun Lounge with them, and that he liked to be around them, that they were good people. He would enlighten them much about this, because Chuck said that he had no use for those kind of people, so he told him that he didn’t care to talk to him about it.
One other item he mentioned is that they had a party or a get-together in his apartment one night. Ted just came walking in. A friend of theirs by the name of Barbara Vallejo, about 19 years of age, was lying on the bed. When Ted came in he walked over to her and pinched her between the legs. She then got up and asked him what the hell was going on. She went back to Chuck and told him, ‘you sure have weird friends.’ He states that there was no other pass made by Ted other than that, and he would do numerous things like this, which they thought was very, very strange.
Interview of James Dunn by Detective Jerry Thompson
February 11, 1976
On 2-11-76 this detective, Jerry Thompson; Lt. Ron Ballantine, Bountiful Police Department; and Lt. Bill Baldridge, Pitkin County Sheriff’s Office, Aspen, Colorado; made contact with a JAMES HARVEY DUNN, living at 553 First Avenue.
He is a mathematics major at the University of Utah. Mr. Dunn was confronted at his door by the above officers and asked if we might come in and talk to him. He refused to let us in his apartment, stating that it was messy, nor that he would talk to us.
When I identified him and told him who I was, he stated he wondered why I had not been there sooner. I told him that I understood that he was a close friend of Mr. Ted Bundy, and he stated that was correct.
He stated he has known Mr. Bundy from approximately September or October of 1974, when Mr. Bundy moved in the apartment house next door to him. He stated that he is a good friend of Ted, in fact last Sunday, which would be 2-8-76, Mr. Bundy was over at his apartment and had supper with him and his wife. He stated that he had nothing to hide and that he would try to answer our questions. He did state that Mr. John O’Connell, the defense attorney, had also talked to him numerous times. I asked him if John was going to have him as a witness, and he stated “I don’t know, he hasn’t said anything to me about it. I don’t know what I could testify to, other than that Ted was a very close friend of mine and that from what I know of him, I don’t feel that he is the man capable of doing the things that the press indicate that he is possibly involved in.”
He also stated that the state must not have too good of a case, he started out with a $100,000 bail and it has since been dropped to $15,000 and that would be an indication to him that they had an over-zealous prosecutor and overcharged him. He feels that it may be possible that the girl made a bad identification and wished us luck, stating ‘may the best man win.’
He was asked if he could tell me if Mr. Bundy had been out of town at anytime during the fall of 1974 and also during the winter of 1975. He stated he did not know that. He did know during that time that he was gone a lot, but he states he did not know if he was out of town or not. He was asked specifically if he knows if Ted had ever been in Colorado, and he stated, “I can’t answer that, I don’t really know.”
He was asked if in his opinion there was anything unusual or odd about Mr. Bundy. He stated, “yes, he has an oral-anal fetish.”
In regards to his apartment, he stated that the individual is immaculately clean, that he keeps everything spotless, and he thought that was very unusual.
He was asked what Mr. Bundy had told him after his very first arrest. He stated that he had told him that he had been picked up for burglar tools, but he stated that Mr. Bundy had never told him at that time, he learned later from his attorney, about the pantyhose and the handcuffs, etc. He was asked what his opinion of that was. He stated, “That’s the only thing that troubles me and that does make me wonder and is very suspicious to me why anyone would have pantyhose with the eyes and so forth cut out of them and a pair of handcuffs.” He stated however, “I still don’t feel that he’s involved in what they say he was, he may be involved in some other illegal actions, I can’t say.”
He was then asked to describe Mr. Bundy’s dress, the way he dressed. He stated that Mr. Bundy dressed rather casually, like he was, in a pair of Levis and things like that, and that he did wear sports coats and dress pants when he went out occasionally, but he was a very casual dresser. He was asked about his shoes. He stated that he wore a lot of loafers most of the time, and pointed down to what I was wearing, which was a pair of patent leather loafers; he stated, “He wears a lot like yours, but of course they weren’t patent leather.” I then stated to him, “Mr. O’Connell’s been talking to you, hasn’t he?” He stated, “Yes he has.” I said, “Have you ever seen Ted wearing a pair of patent leather shoes?” He said, “I’ve never seen him wear a pair and to my knowledge I don’t know if he ever owned a pair. He did wear loafers like that but they weren’t patent leather.”
This individual also stated that he recalled Mr. Bundy when he moved down in the light colored Volkswagen and that he did recall the tear that was in the back seat of it, when he came down to Utah, which he assumed was caused from the sun going through the back window. He was asked if he knew why Ted sold his car or what the circumstances were, and he stated, “No, I just assumed that he sold it because he made the statement that he needed money for his attorney and that was the only way that he could get money for his attorney by selling his car and that he was going to move to a closer place to school and that way he could walk to school.”
He was asked if he knew where Mr. Bundy was staying at this time, and he hesitated. He then stated, “Yes I do, however, I don’t think that I should tell you at this time without conversing with Mr. O’Connell or him.”
It appears that the individual has definitely been heavily prompted by either Mr. Bundy or his attorney as to what information to give us. He did not refuse to answer anything other than the whereabouts of Mr. Bundy. But it is the opinion of this officer that the individual could possibly be holding back some information that may be pertinent to us, however it is hard to say.
Interview with Charles Shearer by County Attorney Dave Yocom
February 19, 1976
Yocom: You gave a statement to Detective Thompson, Chuck, back on November 26, 1975. Basically, I need to talk with you in a little more detail than what Jerry got into, specifically the events you described where Bundy was intoxicated or had been drinking. Do you remember telling Jerry about that?
Shearer: Yeah. I know it was around 11am, or noon. August 1975, I’m pretty sure. Late August or the first of September. I moved out in September.
DY: When did you move in?
CS: First of May or June, 1975.
DY: Which apartment did you occupy?
CS: Four. Straight across the hall from Ted.
DY: How well did you get to know Ted?
CS: Fairly well, he’d been to a couple of the parties that we had. I knew him, talked to him outside. Helped him around the yard, you know, I like to work outside and things like that. I got to know him fairly well.
DY: Who did he associate with mainly during that period of time?
CS: Nobody that I know of except for Margith and us. I never seen him with anybody else except for one girl one time. I think that was his girlfriend. She had a little girl with her.
DY: Did you see him around the apartment house regularly?
CS: He kept odd hours. Like, he’d come in, uh, one night he come into a party that we were having and left around twelve, one o’clock and didn’t come back till five and came right walking in, right in my house, you know, didn’t knock or nothing.
DY: You say he kept odd hours. Do you have any other examples of that?
CS: Oh, I used to hear him, well, I get up quite a bit in the night, you know, our baby was pretty new then, and l used to hear him leave two or three times that I can remember. I’d hear his car start up and leave, you know, late in the night, two, three in the morning. Maybe a little earlier, maybe a little later. I’m not exactly sure. I know it was after twelve.
DY: Did you ever talk to him about what he was doing?
CS: No, I’m not that way. I never pry into other people’s business.
DY: Was he a very talkative fellow?
CS: Oh, he was communicative with me. Uh, he just seemed kind of different like a schizophrenic, you know, he was like two different people sometimes. At one time Ted would be ready, he’d drink with us and party with us and then the next day, he’d be going to church and not wanting nothing to do with us. It was just kind of a strange occurrence, kind of a strange relationship, as a friend or whatever.
DY: Did he ever talk about himself, his background?
CS: Never.
DY: When this event occurred that you described to Jerry in August or early September, to relate that back, he was arrested on a Friday evening or Saturday morning about, on August 16th, and was in jail for a night or so and then rearrested, I think, on the 21st of August. Was it after that?
CS: Well, it was before he ever got arrested. When I didn’t know nothing about him being arrested. When he got arrested the second time, now I knew he got pulled over for some tickets for something. That’s what I was told by Margith; downstairs, but, before he got arrested the second time, I talked to him. That’s when I went over. Like, he told me not to be doing this and that in my house and I was curious why he didn’t want me to do it. You know, I don’t let nobody tell me what I can and can’t do that don’t live there.
DY: Was he concerned that the police were watching the apartment house?
CS: Yeah.
DY: Did you ever see anyone around watching?
CS: I never seen them. Well, at one time I seen some come around the back and they went around the driveway and went out the front and left. Now, I don’t ever know if they were police. You know, it could have been somebody from the apartment building next door. But I was told that it was the police by Dan, downstairs; he said that they was watching the house real close when they went around. That’s the main reason why I went over and asked him was because Dan said, “I wouldn’t let him tell me what to do, I’d find out why.”
DY: Was he telling you basically not to break any laws?
CS: Right, just watch what I’m doing.
DY: Were you smoking marijuana?
CS: Right, he told me not to on the porch and so forth and, well, I figure it’s my business, you know. I’m not bothering anybody by doing it as long as I don’t, you know, stroke the public or anything. So, I talked to Dan and he said, “Well, go find out what he wants.”
So I went upstairs and he wasn’t home. I went in my house and carried on my normal day and the next morning I got up, showered and so forth and walked over to his apartment. It was right close to noon. I knocked on the door and the door was open, the door went open, you know, when I knocked. He was sitting on the couch and he told me to come on in. I went in and I said, “Ted, I got to ask you, I have a right to know. I don’t know what’s going on with you or the police or if they’re bothering you or what the heck is going on, if they’re looking for me or what, but I’m worried about it and I want to know what’s going on. I’d like to know why.”
He really wasn’t even looking at me, it didn’t even feel like he was there. I felt like I was talking to the wall, like he wasn’t even paying attention. That’s when I knew he was drunk cause I could smell it when I sat down. Like he’d been drinking liquor either from the night before or that morning and he did have beer and be offered me one and I said, “No.”
I asked him and he started mumbling subconsciously… I don’t know how or why or anything, about these girls. He says something about getting caught and now they’re trying to bust me and I’d ask him, “What are you talking about, Ted, what do you mean?”
He just looked at me real starey-eyed and he just stopped for a minute and looked at me like, you know, he had caught himself or something, and the next thing I know I asked him again, and he said, “I don’t know, I don’t know. Don’t bother me.” So I just walked out and I left and that was all there was to it.
I think he was more or less subconsciously was talking out loud about these girls and about being caught and then he said something about being busted. I didn’t put two and two together at the time because I didn’t know nothing about it, you know. Then, after he got arrested and I read the papers and seen the news, I thought back about what he was talking about and then, I figured well, if they come to talk to me, I should tell them what he said.
DY: Do you recall his exact words?
CS: The exact words that I can remember is when I went in I asked him, “Ted, what’s going on?” like I said, he wasn’t paying any attention to me and he just seemed like he was really depressed like maybe he was going to cry or something. And he said, “Those girls, those girls.” And then he just said, “Caught.” He didn’t say ‘I got caught’ or ‘I am caught,’ he just said, “Caught, and now they’re going to bust me.” That’s what he said. That’s why I couldn’t put it together because I didn’t know what the hell he meant. It didn’t make no sense to me.
DY: When you talked to Jerry Thompson, if this is accurate, you said, “I asked him what the deal was and he said ‘they pulled me over on some burglary tools’ or something like that, that was in my car.” Is this the same incident you’re talking about now?
CS: Uh uh, no. That was at another time. That when Margith and I just asked him about the ticket or whatever he got. I said, “What did you get pulled over for?” And he said, “Well, they pulled me over and they found some burglary tools in my car.” And I said, “Oh,” and I asked him what they were. He didn’t tell me. I said “Margith told me something about a mask,” you know. But, that was a different incident.
And, then that one time I was in his apartment, helping him get his things together to help him move and he told me about it again. We’d been drinking that day. We were celebrating because he was going to leave, and so forth, and we were talking about where he was going to move. He didn’t really tell me not to tell nobody. He just started bringing the whole thing up again. I asked him why it happened; and then all the sudden, I just decided maybe I shouldn’t ask him, maybe I shouldn’t get involved in it. I just kind of wanted to ignore it, you know.
DY: How many separate times did he mention girls?
CS: Just that one time that he was drunk.
DY: Again, from this statement with Thompson, I’m going to read along a little further. You described that you went over to his place. You said, “You’re telling me that I can’t do this and that around my house, so he staggered in”— into your apartment, I assume— “and we sat down in the living room. I asked him what the deal was and he says that they pulled me over for some burglary tools or something like that in my car” and then he just started staring at the wall. Just like dazed or something, I don’t know what was wrong with him.”
CS: That was when Mark was there.
DY: Let me finish. “And he goes something like, ‘I tried to abduct three girls and they’re trying to get me for that too.’ Now, I couldn’t catch all because he was slurring but he said something like ‘three girls and they were trying to get me for that too,’ or something like that.”
CS: Yeah, that’s the day that I come home from work about twelve o’clock. Ted knew what hours I worked, and me and Mark, we work together, we were sitting on the couch and he knocked on the door and asked my wife if he could go through my window to get into his apartment. I didn’t know why, he didn’t mention why. As soon as he walked in, he looked at me, but he didn’t say no more about it. He sat down, and I asked him, “What the hell is going on Ted, now I want to know the truth.” And then he said something about these girls again, you know, and he was drunk. I don’t know why he wanted to crawl through our room over to his, but as soon as he seen me, the whole idea of going through the window, he said to just forget it and maybe Margith, I think is what he said, already got his stuff out. So, I don’t know. The whole thing’s kind of mixed up to me because I don’t exactly remember all the occurrences because they didn’t really mean that much to me and I try to stay out of other people’s business. I don’t let things really get to me. I know of two times that we talked about it and that was when he come in and Mark was there.
DY: Okay, who’s Mark?
CS: He’s just a guy I work with. I know of two times that Ted came in and mentioned something about the girls being abducted. One time I know of that he didn’t say nothing about them being abducted and that was the time that he was really drunk and I went over to his place to find out what was going on. That was the first time it ever happened.
DY: Was that the one that you described to me first?
CS: Yeah, so that time he was more or less out of it. I don’t even know if he’d been on drugs, you know. Had done something, reds [Seconal, a barbituate] or something, cause he was down and completely out. But that time that he came in the house when they were there, it was weird. I don’t know what was wrong with Ted then, but he asked her if he could go through the window and then he came in. It pissed me off, cause after he seen me, he just ignored the whole idea, and that’s when I thought well, maybe he wanted to do something to my wife. So I says, “Ted, sit down.”
He staggered over, and he sat down and he just started staring at the wall again and I started asking him questions. I think every time that I started asking him, he just kind of went into another world. I don’t know what was wrong with Ted, you know, when he got around me. Every time Ted got around either of us, he’d start talking about queers. He’d start saying how much he liked to go down to the Sun Lounge and be around them. He’d pulled some crap with Barbara, this one girl we know, at a party.
He just always got strange when he was around us. Everybody else in the apartment said that Ted never did that when he was around them. And they were all for him, you know. They were all saying he was innocent. I never said he was guilty but I told them, “Man, he’s done some weird things at my place, some really weird things.” They just ignored it and said, “Oh, I don’t think Ted would do that.”
DY: Did you ever go into his apartment, ever been inside that you could see what was in there?
CS: Oh yeah, the time that I went in and talked to him when he was drunk. I’ve been in the apartment two or three different times.
DY: Did you ever see a satchel-like thing, kind of a light beige, tan, with handles on it like what we used to call a gym bag in high school?
CS: Yeah, I’ve even seen Ted carry it with him. I’m pretty sure I did. I’m not positive but I have seen a gym bag of his, cause he used to go jogging a lot, he always wore gym shorts and that.
DY: Did you ever see what was in that bag?
CS: No, uh uh.
DY: Ever get in his car or ride in his car?
CS: No.
DY: Did you park yours next to his or anything?
CS: Oh yeah.
DY: Notice anything unusual about it? The ’68 VW I’m talking about.
CS: Yeah, I know what his car is. Well, I didn’t really notice anything unusual. He had a lot of rust spots that he took out when he was working on it. His upholstery wasn’t in real good shape. The seat.
DY: Backseat?
CS: Yeah.
DY: What was wrong with that?
CS:. There was a couple of tears, and it was kind of dirty. I don’t know, it wasn’t that new of a Volkswagen.
DY: Did you ever see him with a prybar about eighteen inches to two feet long, a black, eight-sided affair, with a phalanged end?
CS: No, I never seen him with that. I don’t know why, around me, he would have something like that.
DY: Well, I mean, like when he was working on his car or doing something around the apartment house.
CS: No, uh uh.
DY: Did you ever see him with a ski mask, or nylon stocking type mask?
CS: No.
DY: When he would be carrying this bag, when would that usually be?
CS: In the day.
DY: During the day.
CS: Yeah, that I noticed, I mean I know seen him carrying a gym bag once when he was going to play handball or something. I don’t remember what he said he was going to go do. He used to always wear gym shorts, go jogging. I seen him take off a couple of times in his car with a bag. I’m not sure if it was red, yellow, black or brown, but I’m pretty sure it was the one you described. That’s the only one I ever seen that I can remember.
DY: What kind of dresser was he during that period of time?
CS: Casual. He never dressed up much. I did see him dressed up, kind of in maybe suit clothes once in awhile when maybe he was going to work, I don’t know what he was doing. Most of the time, like I say he wore gym shorts and a t-shirt.
DY: That would have been in the summer months of ’75.
CS: Yeah.
DY: Did he ever talk with you about what he was arrested for, this burglary tool thing I’m referring too?
CS: Yeah.
DY: Did you ever ask him what kind of tools he had?
CS: No, I didn’t want to pry.
DY: Did he ever volunteer anything about that, say anything about that arrest?
CS: He just said that it was all a big mistake. He said something about… oh, I know, I know now where I got mixed up when he told me about them burglary tools and the three girls. He told me when he came in that day that the cops said he tried to abduct three girls and they had identified his car and when they pulled him over, they busted him for the burglary tools. That’s what I told Deputy Thompson.
DY: Let me get this straight.
CS: That’s what he was talking about; the fact of abducting, but that wasn’t nothing to do with the time that he was just sitting there. That time he didn’t say three girls, he didn’t say no numbers at all when I went over and talked to him that time when he was just down and out. He just said something about “girls, girls” then he went, “Caught,” and he goes, “Now they’re trying to bust me.” But before that, I asked him why he got pulled over. He says that the cops told him that he tried to abduct three girls and they identified him and then they pulled him over and they got him for the burglary tools. That’s the time that I was telling Thompson about.
DY: He never came right out and said that he had tried to abduct three girls?
CS: Uh uh. I’m pretty sure he didn’t. I probably got mixed up but I’m pretty sure that’s why he told me he got pulled over, was because the cops said that he tried to abduct three girls and they identified the rip in his back seat. That was exactly what he told me. I’m positive. My wife and everybody else was sitting there. I’m sure they’d say the same thing. It’s hard for me to remember exactly what I said two or three months ago to him. But now I do remember why Ted told me that, cause I asked him.
DY: You said “Rose was standing out in the hall, the door was open and she said she heard it cause I walked over there and I says, ‘Did you hear what he told me?’ and she says, ‘yeah.’ I says, ‘I wonder why he said that’.”
CS: Well that was when, you know, Dan told me to go up and find out why he didn’t want me to be smoking and drinking and so forth. Rose was standing right in the hall, in the doorway, and we were sitting on the couch. The apartments are awful small and you could have all the doors open and have a conversation and everybody could hear what you were saying. I asked her, I walked in and I says, “Did you hear that?” and she says, “Yeah.”
DY: After he was arrested, there was quite a bit of publicity over what he was charged with, and—
CS: That’s why, when the cops come to me, you know, I talked to them; but, at first, I didn’t want to tell them anything cause I was afraid too. I didn’t want to get involved and I didn’t know what would happen. But I know the two different occurrences now. I got the two mixed up.
DY: Which occurred first?
CS: The one where I went over to him. That was the very first time.
DY: And Rose was there?
CS: Rose was standing in the doorway.
DY: And you asked him what the deal was.
CS: Yeah and he wasn’t even paying any attention to me then. He just was like…
DY: Try to reflect back in your mind Chuck, about that particular day and recreate it as best you can as to what was said.
CS: Well, the best that I can remember, like I say, I knocked on his door, the door was already open and you know, it opened up more when I knocked. He told me to come on in, I went in and asked him what he was doing. He had a beer, he offered me a beer and I said I didn’t want one and I told him “I want to ask you something, I want to know what’s going on.” Then, he didn’t say anything. I says, “I want to know why you’re telling me this and that and why I can’t do this and that at my apartment.” He was just drunk and he just started mumbling about, he said “girls” twice and then he said, “caught” and then he said, “Now they’re going to bust me” or “Now they’re trying to bust me.” Then I said, “What did you say Ted?” Then he said, “Oh, nothing.” He looked at me real starey-eyed, you know, and kind of shook his head. I says, “I’ll come back and talk to you later.” Then I just walked out and that’s when I’d seen that Rose was standing there and I said, “Did you hear what he said?” and she said, “Yeah.” I said, “I wonder why he said that.” We walked in the house and she said, “I don’t know, he’s always been kind of strange to me.” That’s the best I can remember it.
DY: Then you go forward until the first part of October when the news broke on it that he was arrested and charged with this kidnapping in Murray. Did you sit down and discuss with Rose about this conversation at that time?
CS: Oh yeah, I discussed it with Rose and my mother-in-law and everybody. I talked it over with them and told them what he said and tried to remember the best I could. You see, I didn’t really take it as being that important. I just kind of let it slide and that’s why I’m afraid that if I say anything he didn’t say or say something that he, or forget that he did say something, you know, and then, what am I supposed to do. I didn’t know exactly, at the time, if I should, you know, get ahold of the police or let them, wait and get ahold of me or what. Cause that’s what they did. They come round to the apartment and talked to everybody. But I was the only one, and Margith was the only one, that they talked to.
DY: So, the one incident you remember, he didn’t say, “I got pulled over because they identified my car.”
CS: Yeah, I must have told Thompson wrong if I told him he said that he did abduct three girls. I’m pretty sure I told him wrong. He said that that’s why they pulled him over because three girls that he supposedly tried to abduct identified his car and they busted him for some burglary tools. I just took that as granted, you know, so what. I don’t care about that. Then I was relieved to know that, you know, they weren’t looking at me or my house. But, the time before that, when he was drunk, is when he mumbled something about, he said, “girls” twice, I’m positive; he said “caught” and then he said, “now they’re going to bust me” or “they’re trying to bust me”. That’s when I said, ”What, what are you talking about, Ted.” And he just kind of shook his head and looked at me real funny. I said, “Well, I’ll just talk to you later when you’re in better condition.” That’s when I walked out and Rose was standing there…
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…that he was or wasn’t; arguing and yelling, cause at first, the whole place was kind of a turmoil, it was kind of mixed up, you know. Nobody knew what the hell was going on. I wish I wouldn’t have told him that because now I remember that ain’t what he said. I don’t know, maybe he misunderstood me or maybe I just misunderstood myself, but, I want to get it down right. I know that he didn’t say, you know, “I did do it” that time. He came in and told me why he got arrested. Why he got pulled over.
DY: When you talked with Margith, did she seem to change her attitude towards him over a period of time?
CS: I don’t know. Their relationship, I don’t know, it was kind of strange. I don’t know if they were having an affair or not. I feel like they were but then sometimes I couldn’t tell. You know, they’d leave together and come back and Ted would go down and see her, she’d go up and see Ted. She never really told me how much she liked him or didn’t like him. Never showed it either that I can see or remember.
DY: Did he ever tell you that he’d been in the State of Colorado?
CS: Uh uh, no. He told me he was in Washington one time. I asked him what he was going to school for and he said, “Oh, I was going to be a lawyer so I went to school in Washington” or “I worked for the government out there” or something like that. I don’t remember exactly…
[tape ends/recording begins]
CS: …I don’t like him at all. They were pretty tight though, l guess. It was awful weird why Jim [Dunn] stuck up for him like he did because two different times Jim told me downstairs in Dan’s apartment that Ted would come over odd hours of the night panting, and scared and saying, “Hey, let me in, I’ve got to come in, I’ve got to talk to you guys.” I know for a fact that two different times Jim told me this, and Dan and everybody else was sitting there. Also, Ted did things like— Sherri, downstairs, we were real good friends, you know. I always went down and seen Dan and Sherri and talk and have a beer or something. One day Sherri was telling me that Ted was standing by her window and he’d come over to mow the lawn after he’d already moved. He wasn’t even the manager there any more, caretaker or whatever. And, he come over and stood by her window and started singing this nasty song, she said. I said, “Well, why didn’t you come up and get me or tell me, you know, I’d have told him to knock it off.” She didn’t say any more about it. Then another time, me and Darwin, a buddy of mine, was sitting on the front porch. Margith’s cat was sitting on the windowsill. Margith was just standing inside talking on the phone and Ted looked up and he goes, “See that pussy, ain’t that nice,” and started laughing. Then he says, “That cat.” But he did weird things like this and all them people condoned it. I couldn’t figure out why. Jim was the same way. He’d come over to Jim’s house a couple of times, panting and raving, saying, “Hey, let me in, I got to talk to you.” I don’t know, it was weird; late at night they’d say too.
DY: Would they generally tell you what they talked about?
CS: Uh uh, nope.
DY: Does Jim have a girlfriend or wife he lives with?
CS: His wife, yeah. Jan Davies. Dark hair, glasses. Both from California I think.
DY: When he started cleaning up his car, did he ever tell you why he was cleaning it up?
CS: He said that he had to pay his lawyer.
DY: Where did he do that?
CS: Out in that big parking lot across the street. Took the bumper off too. Never put it back on, didn’t tell me why. I asked him, “Why don’t you put your bumper back on, you could get a ticket for that. It don’t look good without it.” He said something about getting another one. l said, “There ain’t nothing wrong with that; it’s just got t little dent in it.” I don’t know, he didn’t want to put it back on.
DY: When was that?
CS: Oh, right after he got arrested for the burglary tools and that and the fact of him being identified, he said.
DY: Did he ever have that bumper off at any other time, do you know?
CS: Uh uh. The bumper was always on his car until he started working on it.
DY: When he started working on it, how did he clean it up or what did he do?
CS: Took all the rust spots out, body putty, sanded it, spray painted part of it with primer. Just more or less kind of took the rust spots out. Didn’t do anything to the inside that I can remember. Just worked on the outside, I think.
DY: Did you know a girl named Leslie Knudson?
CS: No.
DY: Do you know any other girls that he dated?
CS: No. Well, I was telling you about, one day I was just sitting looking out the window and he was with some girl with a little kid and they were all running around out in the yard and he was squirting her with a hose, the little girl, they were playing. She has long dark hair. Then, later on that night, her parents or grandparents or something, some older people come by in a car; he kissed her goodbye and she got in and they left. I think it was the same girl. I didn’t know who she was. That was the only one l ever seen him around.
DY: Did you ever see him wearing patent leather shoes?
CS: Oh yeah. He dressed up a couple times in a gray suit and he had some patent leather shoes. They were dark. I’m not sure what color. I think they were dark though.
DY: When was that?
CS: Right around the same time he was working at the University I think, as a security guard for awhile. Then he quit that job and then like he’d go to church on Sundays, you know, then party through the week. I seen him a couple times dressed up, you know, fairly nice in a gray suit and a light blue suit once I think, and some dark patent leather shoes. I remember looking at them cause I don’t like patent leather shoes.
DY: Dark patent leather shoes. Did you ever look in his closet or have an occasion to be in his apartment when you’d see shoes laying around?
CS: No, I never pay no attention to that stuff.
DY: But you do remember seeing him dressed up with patent leather shoes?
CS: Oh yeah. I never seen him dressed up. I always seen him in gym shorts. Never seen him in anything but gym shorts. It always cracked me up cause he’d go to church on Sunday all slicked up and then party through the week, you know. Pretty strange. That’s why I always thought he was a schizophrenic.
DY: Did you ever know any of his LDS missionary friends?
CS: Old woman come over. They weren’t missionary friends or nothing but an old woman and little girl come over one time and gave me Ted’s keys that he’d left at her place. I don’t know who she was. A real old woman. I seen a couple of his friends. One, what the heck did he drive… it was an old beatup black car or something. I don’t remember his name. It was the day he was moving. He helped us move Ted.
DY: Did you help Ted move?
CS: Yeah. He asked me to the day before and I told him that I would. I only made one load over there and then I just didn’t feel like doing it.
DY: What’d you take?
CS: Oh hell, pictures, ah, he had a big wooden thing, a stand, that had a couple of braces on that.
DY: Butcher block?
CS: Yeah, shit, I won’t forget that. That was heavy. He never used it. That freaked me out too, I couldn’t believe that. He had a meat cutting block, all the tools, but he had to come over and ask my wife how to cook a chicken. I never seen that guy eat meat or anything. I seen him go to the store and come home with a little sackful of, he’d buy a whole boxful of chocolate eclairs and drink a half-gallon of milk. Those the kind of things he ate. I never seen him eat decent meals or meat or nothing. But he had that nice, well, meat block, you know, sometimes are for looks too. I wouldn’t mind having one myself, they’re nice looking. They’re hard to get ahold of too, like that one anyway, as big as it is. I won’t forget that, it was heavy.
DY: Do you know what church he went to when he’d go to church?
CS: Nah.
DY: The one would be in the area though I presume, wouldn’t it?
CS: Possible, there’s one around up there, I don’t know, I’m not LDS- I don’t know where their churches and that are.
DY: Did you ever see him wear different kinds of patent leather shoes, different colors, or just the one?
CS: Seen him in a pair of dark ones one time with a gray suit, kind of an older looking suit too, you know. Not a very tapered cut, you know, or anything like that, but an older looking suit. Kind of baggy in the pants. I notice people’s clothes, you know, I’m self-conscious about things I wear or the way I look. I always check people’s clothes out cause I like clothes.
DY:· Did you ever see him with any type of weapon, gun, knives, anything of that nature?
CS: Uh Uh, not that I can remember. No. Never.
DY: Has he been back to the apartment? When did you move from the apartment house building?
CS: Well, I didn’t move myself. I went on a hunting trip in Montana and while I was gone, my mother-in-law watched my place and I wanted them to move me out while I was gone and they moved me out. That was in October.
DY: Remember the date?
CS: Around the 19th is when hunting season started. Well, I didn’t move out till about the first of November, first week of November, right around there.
DY: Have you ever had any contact with Ted since then?
CS: Seen him just two weeks ago. Within the last two weeks.
DY: · Where?
CS: In our neighbor Brillo’s apartment upstairs. I went up to Brillo’s, walked in the apartment and there he was with a beard. I didn’t know who it was at first. I looked at him and went, “Wow.” He shook my hand and I said, “How ya doing?” He said “Fine.” I walked out and left.
DY: That’s all that happened?
CS: Yeah.
DY: He didn’t ask you if you’d talked to the cops or anything?
CS: Didn’t even mention his case or nothing.
DY: About his appearance. It’s obviously different now than it was then.
CS: Oh yeah, I think he looks better. I like the beard, you know. He is different now. I didn’t even know who he was at first. Course, Brillo’s apartment is always kind of dark, you know.
DY: Going back to when you first moved in, how was his hair length?
CS: Pretty long, about right close to his shoulder.
DY: Ever see him with a mustache?
CS: Yeah he had a mustache.
DY: When?
CS: Right after we first moved in he shaved it. He grew a beard too while we lived there once. Started to and then he shaved it off before it got completely full. His hair was pretty long when we first moved in.
DY: Okay now, what sort of a mustache did he have? Over the corner of the mouth or…
CS: Oh, it’s kind of hard for me to, I don’t really check things out that much. Just an average mustache I guess, maybe kind of a close to a manchu, you know, maybe just right down to the corner of the mouth. I know Anita, my sister-in-law, she said she sees Ted around there a lot lately. We only live right around the corner on 3rd Avenue and “I” Street. She said that she’s seen him down there quite a bit lately, going back and forth. She asked me if he moved back in there, taking over and I said, “Oh, I don’t know. I don’t think he has.”
DY: But he did have a mustache in May when you moved in?
CS: Yeah, I’m pretty sure he did. I even know he grew a beard while we were there. He had pretty long hair too. His hair was about as long as mine when we moved in there. I remember when he got it cut cause I asked him why he got it and he said, “Well, I’m trying to clean up my act” or something like that. I said, “Oh, you shouldn’t have got it cut. It looked better long.” I just kind of razzed him about it.
DY: Did he mention that he was a law student?
CS: Yeah. I asked him what he was doing in school. I asked him what he was studying, you know, what he was going to do. He hold me he was going to be a lawyer. Said he was supposed to graduate within the next year or two or within the next, right around December I think it was, of this year he was supposed to graduate. I’m not sure. I think that’s what he said. Within the next year. That’s why he told me he moved up there was cause he sold his car, he says it’s closer to law school and he could just walk.
DY: Do you ever see him with any other friend, male friends, other than those in the apartment house?
CS: Just that one guy that day we moved. I don’t even know who he was and some chick that he knew with a Mustang. She had kind of a turquoise blue Mustang.
DY: You never saw him with a male friend driving a dark green pickup truck?
CS: I think I have seen the truck but, I don’t pay that much attention to that kind of stuff. He’s probably with him or he’s probably been at the house, and I’m pretty sure I remember that truck.
DY: There’s one of his friends that moved to Canada. I can’t remember his name right now. Did you know him?
CS: No.
DY: He’s never talked to you about this case or anything of that nature?
CS: Nope, he never mentioned it. After he got arrested and everything, you know, it was all in the papers and that, I never seen him that much. First time I seen him after that was the other day at Brillo’s. First time after I got back from Montana.
DY: Well, okay. I appreciate your help.
Interview of James Dunn by Detective Jerry Thompson
March 3, 1976
On Wednesday, 3-3-76, at approximately 3:00 pm, a JAMES HARVEY DUNN was waiting in my office for me. He stated that he wanted to talk to me. Mr. Dunn was one of the individuals who testified on behalf of Mr. Bundy, who lived in the apartment building next door to him and was his closest friend. In fact, Mr. Bundy was best man at Dunn’s wedding [editor’s note: this is incorrect. Bundy was a witness at the Dunn-Davies civil ceremony, not best man].
Mr. Dunn was very antagonistic when I first interviewed him on 2-11-76, and he was also the same way in court. His first comment to me this date was “I want to apologize” or “I’m sorry, I was a little hard on you the first time that I talked to you. I hope you can understand my point of view. I have known Ted since about September of 1974 and he has been my closest and my best friend, I thought. It was very hard for me to believe that he could possibly be responsible for the things that he’s convicted of. Now that he’s convicted, I don’t know which way to go and which way to think. I would like to ask you personally, do you truly believe without a shadow of a doubt that Ted was guilty.” I told him that was a hell of a question to ask me, did he think that I always investigated and signed complaints on individuals that were not guilty? He stated, “I did not meant it that way, I’m sorry.” I told him there was no doubt in my mind that Ted was definitely guilty of this case.
He asked me, he had started to think now of the missing girls around the same time this happened, etc.; he wanted to know if I thought Ted was involved with them. I told him I could not answer that question.
He asked me if I was still investigating Ted, and I told him yes, he was still under investigation. He stated, “You know, it’s hard to believe. The guy was over to my apartment almost continually, would have dinner, was with me and my wife lots of times, and he just never appeared to be anything like this. However, I will have to admit and say that I thought he was unusual to the effect that as a law student Ted never studied. I don’t recall him ever cracking a book. He was home during the day a lot. He was out at night a lot.”
He stated that he went away on a couple of vacations during 1975 to Seattle and that he went over and took care of Ted’s plants that he had in his apartment and took care of things for him, but there were several times during the early part of 1975, which he states, “I cannot remember exactly, but Ted would leave for two or three days at a time and would never say anything to me.”
He stated, “I thought it was unusual because I would usually take care of his plants, pick up his mail, etc., but he would not tell me on these particular days. When he’d come back I would ask him why he didn’t let me know he was going, I would have watered his plants and taken care of things. I can’t remember his comment. It was something like ‘well I didn’t know I was going’ or something. Dunn stated he did not know where Ted went, Ted never did tell him and he doesn’t know if he ever really asked Ted where he had been.
He was curious to know what had gone on in the trial, as he wasn’t allowed to be in there. I informed him I wasn’t in the trial either. He wanted to know if he could read the transcript of the trial. I told him that the County Clerk’s office would have it, and when it was transcribed it was a public record, to my knowledge; and that if he went down there he could possibly read it.
He stated he didn’t know which way to turn now, that if there was anything that he could help the police with he would be more than willing to do so. He asked if I would come out and talk to him and his wife some night when I had time, as they wanted to talk to me.
There may be something that he could do that would help this officer. And maybe I could help him more in his mind as he is thoroughly confused now, that he is not too sure that he really knew Ted. He stated, “I thought I knew him very well. We never went out to parties or anything like that, but I was in his apartment and he was in mine and I truly thought he was a fine young man. But some of the things I think of now were a little bit strange.”
I informed him I would be more than happy to talk to him at a later date, that I would make an appointment with him to talk to him and his wife.
Interview with: Margith Maughan
3/9/1976
Ms. Maughan was interviewed at her attorney’s office on 9 March 1976.
Ms. Maughan stated that she first met Theodore Bundy in September (later part) of 1974 in Salt Lake City, Utah, at 565 1st Avenue, Salt Lake, in an apartment house. Ms. Maughan further stated that she rented unit #1 and Ted (Theodore Bundy) possibly lived in #2 upstairs, as Bundy was also the manager at that time. Ms. Maughan recalled that Bundy had moved there (565 1st Ave) shortly before she had.
Ms. Maughan stated that Bundy was attending the University of Utah law school, day sessions at this time. Ms. Maughan stated that when she met Bundy, he was driving a tan Volkswagen with Washington plates. Ms. Maughan stated that after February of 1975, Mr. Bundy’s vehicle had different Utah plates.
Ms. Maughan stated that after the 1st of October, 1974, she became socially acquainted with Ted Bundy. She described him as a very friendly person and a good conversationalist.
Ms. Maughan stated that she could recall Bundy being depressed on only one occasion and that was during the fall of 1974 when he mentioned he was 28 years old and still going to school. The comment was not violent at all.
Ms. Maughan stated that in March of 1975, she recalled seeing Bundy drive up in front of the apartment house. Bundy’s chest and shoulders were heaving as if upset. Bundy went upstairs without any explanation as to circumstances.
Ms . Maughan stated that religion was a topic of conversation as well as other subjects, as politics and psychology. Ms. Maughan stated that the she never saw Bundy study or read; although he had a good selection of books of good reading, quality, none appeared to be the trash variety. But did recall that he did have the “Joy of Sex”. Bundy had asked Maughan if she had ever seen it and gave it to her to look at. She returned it after a quick viewing as she didn’t like it.
Ms. Maughn stated that Bundy was very immaculate, and that she felt uncomfortable to be in his (Bundy’s) apartment.
Ms. Maughan stated that friends or callers were not frequent and there was no particular type of person coming or going from Bundy’s apartment.
Ms. Maughan stated that Bundy never mentioned being in the State of Colorado or desiring to go there. Nor did she have first hand knowledge of his going there.
Ms. Maughan stated that Ted had told her he didn’t have money to ski, but he did like to ski.
Ms. Maughan stated that during a conversation with Ted Bundy after a Sunday church service, she and Bundy were into a discussion and Ted Bundy told her “there was no difference between right and wrong” in a religious sense. This conversation took place in Feb. or March of 1975.
Ms. Maughan stated that she knew Bundy to go to a bar that was considered gay (“The Sun”) as Ted had a live and let live attitude toward homosexuality.
Ms. Maughan stated that a Scott Nelson lived upstairs on the same floor as Ted Bundy. Ms. Maughan described Scott Nelson as a: white, male, effeminate. 25-26 yrs. 5’9″- 5’11.” Brown hair, parted in the middle over the collar length. 160 lbs (approx.). Clean shaven, no accent, glasses, possible present address Toronto, Canada. Ms. Maughan stated that Scott and Bundy became close friends but she could not recall any trips that Bundy took with Scott.
Ms. Maughan stated that she recalled Bundy taking trips that would cover Friday, Saturday, Sunday – frequently. Ms. Maughan recalled that she remembered this because Bundy kept the vacuum cleaner in his apt. She cleaned on weekends and he generally wasn’t there.
Ms. Maughan stated that when she first met Ted Bundy in 1974, he had his hair pulled back in a (or similar to) pompadour, however she does not recall him ever wearing his hair in that fashion again. She did recall he had changed his hair on different occasions. Ms. Maughan stated that in January 1975, Bundy’s hair was worn short on the sides and he was clean shaven.
Ms. Maughan stated that she knew Ted Bundy to own a light colored over coat but had no knowledge of a dark colored over coat.
Ms. Maughan stated that Ted Bundy spoke little of his family but he alleged to get along well with his mother, but didn’t appear to care about knowing his father.
Ms. Maughan stated that she has personally seen Ted Bundy remove the right front seat from his tan V.W. around March of 1975 or April 1975. Ted was being helped by Scott and at this time they were doing many things together.
Ms. Maughan stated that she recalled a statement by Ted Bundy: “I like virgins, I can have then any time I want.” Maughan recalled that this was his (Bundy’s) only mention of other woman as he never mentioned any particular type of women.
Ms. Maughan stated that she recalled during the fall of 1974 she had arrived home late and began cleaning her apartment when Ted Bundy came in carrying a satchel simulated alligator skin leather, a deep reddish brown. Maughan further recalls that the satchel appeared heavy. She could not recall if she attempted to lift the satchel herself or in the way it was put down by Bundy.
Ms. Maughan stated that sometime in the fall of 1974, near Thanksgiving, Ted Bundy had been away. She believed deer hunting with his girl friend’s father. Maughan states that Bundy arrived back at the apartments around 5:00 a..m. and as she watched him through the window, Bundy went into the trunk area of the V. W. and appeared to be uptight.
Ms. Maughan stated that Bundy stayed at the apartments until approx. the last weekend of September 1975 when he left to move closer to school.
Ms. Maughan stated that she could recall Bundy washing his car in Sept. of 1975 and at that particular time a new seat or cover had been put in his car.
Ms. Maughan also recalled that Ted Bundy bought Olympic beer and Schlitz; drank Johnny Walker scotch; was never present if any drugs were used by Bundy.
Ms. Maughan stated that Bundy once told her of catching a pick pocket in Seattle, Washington.
Ms. Maughan stated that Bundy had also told her that a few years ago (73-74) while he was drinking heavily and he had walked into a store and stolen a portable T.V. set and got away with the crime.
Report by Detective Jerry Thompson
March 21, 1977
On 3-21-77, Mike Fisher from Aspen, Colorado and a Milton K. Blakely, who is a Chief Deputy out of the District Attorney’s Office in Colorado Springs, Colorado held a conference Monday, Tuesday, and half of Wednesday. Numerous other officers and people were contacted during this time, as they are preparing for their case on Ted Bundy, which goes to court April 4, 1977.
They made contact with several of the witnesses in the Salt Lake area in regards to their case. They were unable to make contact with Rose Mary Shearer, who had been used as a witness in the Carol DaRonch case. They asked this detective if I would make contact with her.
Contact was made at her apartment, which is the Stratford Hotel in Salt Lake City. She’s living there with her younger sister and her mother.
They requested that I show her some pictures of some coats out of a magazine that they had left me, to see if she could identify any one of them or any resemblance to them that Mr. Bundy had worn during the time that she lived across the hall from him. She stated, “It’s been so long ago I just can’t tell you. I do believe, in fact I am sure, that he had several jackets like windbreakers, of the slick finish, nylon type.” She said, “I believe they were dark blue, but they could have been a different color. They zip up in front.” And she was not sure if they looked like the ones in the photos, or not. She says “They could have been,” but it’s been too long for her to tell.
Interview of Scott Nelson by Detective Jerry Thompson
Thursday January 12, 1978
A SCOTT NELSON, a former associate of Bundy’s, who was living in the Canada area, where Bundy has made a call to him, was attempted to be located in Canada. It was found that the individual had moved from there to the Salt Lake area and was living with his mother. I attempted to make contact with the individual several times at his home, and was unable to.I then obtained a subpoena for this individual from Dave Yocom, at the County Attorneys Office, requesting the interview to be held Friday the 13th at 2pm. I finally made contact by telephone with Scott’s mother, informed her who I was, and asked her if she would please have him call me. She seemed to be very upset but stated that she would get the message to him. This was on Thursday, January 12. Later on in the afternoon, the individual called my secretary and informed her that he was not going to talk to me, and that if I wanted any information to contact Mike Fisher in Colorado, as he had talked to him before and was tired of being harassed. I immediately called him back and after some persuading on the phone, he reluctantly agreed to come in at 2:30 p.m., this date and talk to myself and Captain Hayward.
The individual came into the office that afternoon, after a short while with him he seemed to settle down and was not so upset as he was at first. He did not want me to tape his conversation however. He basically went over when he met Bundy, which was in October of ’74, when Bundy moved into the apartment with him at 565 1st Avenue. He knew him from then until March, the last part of March until he moved out.
He stated that they had gone drinking a couple of times, had double dated once or twice. Other than that he did not know the individual too awfully well, as he was studying at the U and assumed Ted was also. He stated that he was very shocked to find out that Ted had missed almost the entire fall quarter, because he always left every morning and he assumed that he was going to college.
Scott also stated that he himself left on weekends a lot, and does not know if Bundy was home, if he traveled or what he’d done. If he did travel, he states that the individual never confided in him. He stated that the only vehicles he knew Ted to have was a light brown or tan VW Bug, and that he had an older model pickup truck that ran off and on.
He stated that he had never observed any scratches or marks or anything on Ted’s face at any time. Ted was a neat dresser and kept himself rather neat all the time. He stated that they did go with Margaret Maughn who lived in the apartment at one time down to the Sun Lounge, that he was not aware of Ted having any girls up to his apartments, other than maybe for an hour or two to eat during the evening, and that he assumed that he was probably his closest friend, and yet he also states he was not that close.
He stated that when he came back to Salt Lake after he had moved, he was shocked to find out that Ted had been arrested, that it didn’t seem possible to him, and that it was during the December months, just after Ted had bailed out of jail, that he ran into him downtown Salt Lake where he was window shopping. He asked Ted a little about it, and Ted told him that he was not allowed to discuss the matter on orders of his attorneys, so he stated he did not go into the matter.
He states he never heard or saw him since, but while Ted was in jail, he called his mother and wanted Scott’s phone number, and that Ted did call him in Canada to talk to him. He stated that he basically wanted to talk about the Laura Ann Aime case in Utah County, stating that the police were trying to involve him in that and also Scott and he just wanted him to be aware of it. Scott denies ever being down in Utah County, Lehi, or in a cafe with Ted Bundy, where he was supposedly seen by some witnesses in Utah County. He states that he told the Utah County Authorities and also Colorado authorities that, and he’s still sticking with that story that he never went down there with Ted, doesn’t even know where the place is.
He was asked if he observed anything wrong with the seat in Ted’s VW, he stated ‘I don’t know if it’s from people asking me, but it seems to me that something was wrong with the passenger seat, that it was broken or something, but I can’t put my finger on it.’
He was asked if he had ever observed Ted with a pair of handcuffs, he stated ‘yes I believe he did have a pair, but I just cannot remember for sure, where and how I seen them. I believe at one time he was playing around with them, and it seems to me that he put them on Margaret Maughan and hooked them onto the door, but I may be wrong there.’
He was asked if he was aware of a meat block in Ted’s apartment, he stated that yes, Ted had got that after he had moved there from a want ad in the Salt Lake Tribune, and just more or less had it for a conversation piece.
He was asked if he knew anything about Ted’s background, if he ever talked about it. He stated very little, but he did observe from being around him, that Ted did not like blacks or Orientals, for some reason. Other than that he never talked too much about his home life. He was asked if he ever mentioned Liz Kloepfer; Scott stated no. He was asked if Ted ever mentioned a girlfriend in Seattle, he stated no, he didn’t know that he had one.
The individual seemed to be cooperative; he assured the Captain and myself that if he heard from Ted or had any information, that he did not want to get involved in it, he did not want to get his life ruined in publicity in regards to the matter, and that he would certainly give us a call. He stated ‘this has got to end somewhere, and I don’t want to get involved, and my life ruined for Ted, as I only knew him for six months, I lived in the same apartment building, and I’m sorry I ever met him.’
Thanks for this its a tresure
I thought it was interesting that Mary stated that Bundy had aged a lot over the past year, considering the timing. Thanks for sharing!
Great job Tiffany…thanks for sharing these interviews.
Chris? When I met Ted Bundy in 1977 he told me his name was Chris Hagen. OMG did he know you back then? Why would he tell me he was Chris Hagen??? Sylvia